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4 Jul 21, 09:23 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thanks Jacinta, good evening!
4 Jul 21, 09:23 PM
Joy_Moderator: We have come to an end of our blog chat. Thank you all for joining & please do your dedication!

We humbly thank our dear Guru, H.E. the 25th Tsem Rinpoche for creating this blog chat with the wish for us to learn more Dharma and expand our mind. Thank you everyone and stay safe! 🙏 📿🙏📿🙏📿

4 Jul 21, 09:23 PM
Pastor Shin: Everyone take care ya! Stay safe!
4 Jul 21, 09:22 PM
Pastor Shin: Thank you Joy for moderating and thank you everyone for joining. Good to revisit this story about Choyang Kuten whom Rinpoche always spoke affectionately about.
4 Jul 21, 09:22 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Yee Mun and Andrea. Have a good rest of the evening 🙏🏼
4 Jul 21, 09:21 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): Thank you Rinpoche, Joy, Pastors and everyone. Good night and stay safe.
4 Jul 21, 09:21 PM
Andrea Lai: Thank you Rinpoche, Joy and everyone. Gotta go, stay safe, healthy and good night
4 Jul 21, 09:21 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A5 :
serve the Tibetan refugee community as an oracle. 


Choyang Kuten Lama as the Secretary of the Co-operative Society appealed to the Indian government for financial assistance to build accommodations for the monks of the various traditions (Gelug, Nyingma, and Sakya), committee halls, and other special projects recommended by Mr. Katarbe. Due to his efforts, 16 quarters each with the capacity of housing 20 monks and two committee halls were constructed. Mr. Katarbe 

- Choyang Kuten Lama also acted as the Vice President of the Tibetan Freedom Movement and in that position he would relay the 14th Dalai Lama’s speeches and various official announcements to the Tibetan refugee community. 
4 Jul 21, 09:20 PM
Jacinta: Thank you Joy for moderating. Thank you and good night Rinpoche, Pastors, and everyone here tonight.
4 Jul 21, 09:20 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Pastor Shin
4 Jul 21, 09:19 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Sam... please do your dedication ya
4 Jul 21, 09:18 PM
Fhsam: Good night and thank you Rinpoche ... Joy and everyone . Stay safe
4 Jul 21, 09:18 PM
Pastor Shin: A5. Choyang Kuten Lama was the Secretary of the Co-operative Society and he took his role very seriously. He appealed to the Indian government for financial assistance to build accommodations for the monks of the various traditions (Gelug, Nyingma, and Sakya), committee halls, and other special projects recommended by Mr. Katarbe. Due to his efforts, 16 quarters each with the capacity of housing 20 monks and two committee halls were constructed. Mr. Katarbe and the monks recognised Choyang Kuten Lama’s honesty and contributions, and in a special ceremony attended by monks of various Tibetan Buddhist sects, Mr. Katarbe offered Choyang Kuten Lama a piece of land, a house and a well-bred cow to support his livelihood.

Choyang Kuten Lama also acted as the Vice President of the Tibetan Freedom Movement and in that position he would relay the 14th Dalai Lama’s speeches and various official announcements to the Tibetan refugee community. The Assembly of Tibetan People’s Deputies openly recognised his contributions and gave him a certificate of acknowledgement for his work.

Choyang Kuten Lama benefited all Tibetans, not only the Gelug monastic community, but also monks from other traditions and the lay community. He really served the Buddhadharma as the oracle and a true patriot of the Tibetan people.
4 Jul 21, 09:18 PM
Joy_Moderator:
5. When Choyang Kuten Lama went to South India, what did he do to help and serve his people? What does it say about him as an oracle and a person?

- Initially, the Tibetan refugee settlements in South India were very poor and the society depended on the Indian government’s assistance.
Choyang Kuten Lama took his role as the Secretary of the Co-operative Society very seriously, and his role as an oracle became secondary. 
- He appealed to the Indian government for financial assistance to build accommodations for the monks of the various traditions (Gelug, Nyingma, and Sakya), committee halls, and other special projects recommended by Mr. Katarbe.
- Due to his efforts, 16 quarters each with the capacity of housing 20 monks and two committee halls were constructed.
- Besides serving the monastic community, Choyang Kuten Lama also acted as the Vice President of the Tibetan Freedom Movement and in that position he would relay the 14th Dalai Lama’s speeches and various official announcements to the Tibetan refugee community.
- The Assembly of Tibetan People’s Deputies openly recognised his contributions and gave him a certificate of acknowledgement for his work. Choyang Kuten Lama remained loyal to the Tibetan Cause and the Dalai Lama throughout his life and it was an unfortunate and undeserved outcome when all Dorje Shugden worshippers were falsely accused of being sectarian and against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. 
- Choyang Kuten Lama’s life, in and out of trance, is testimony that the accusations and charges against Dorje Shugden people are false. 
4 Jul 21, 09:16 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Andrea for your answer
4 Jul 21, 09:16 PM
Andrea Lai: A5: He continued to serve the Tibetan refugee community as an oracle. Due to his esteemed position, and the fact that he was a senior Tibetan from Tibet, he was well received and well respected by the community who placed their trust in him. In addition, they believed that he was efficient and educated. Therefore, they elected him to be the Secretary of the Co-operative Society which is a society of 600 monks consisting of the four traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. He appealed to the Indian government for financial assistance to build accommodations for the monks of the various traditions (Gelug, Nyingma, and Sakya), committee halls, and other special projects. Due to his efforts, 16 quarters each with the capacity of housing 20 monks and two committee halls were constructed.Besides serving the monastic community, Choyang Kuten Lama also acted as the Vice President of the Tibetan Freedom Movement and in that position he would relay the 14th Dalai Lama’s speeches and various official announcements to the Tibetan refugee community. The Assembly of Tibetan People’s Deputies openly recognised his contributions and gave him a certificate of acknowledgement for his work. Choyang Kuten Lama remained loyal to the Tibetan Cause and the Dalai Lama throughout his life and it was an unfortunate and undeserved outcome when all Dorje Shugden worshippers were falsely accused of being sectarian and against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Choyang Kuten Lama’s life, in and out of trance, is testimony that the accusations and charges against Dorje Shugden people are false.
4 Jul 21, 09:14 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Sam and Pastor Antoinette... this is an important point as pointed out by Jacinta > as mentioned, Kuten Lama helped everyone, regardless their background or religious practices and their sects. Choyang Kuten Lama’s life, in and out of trance, is testimony that the accusations and charges against Dorje Shugden people are false. He remained loyal to the Tibetan Cause and the Dalai Lama throughout his life.
4 Jul 21, 09:14 PM
Pastor Adeline: A5. In 1959, Choyang Kuten Lama and Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche as well as their escape party left Tibet and reached the Buxa Transit Camp in India.

In Buxa, Choyang Kuten Lama stayed with approximately 1,500 monks of various Tibetan Buddhist traditions. He served everyone regardless of which sect they belonged to, not only the Gelugpas. He became a beloved and influential figure and was consulted whenever major decisions were to be made. He also participated in many conferences held in Dharamsala and New Delhi.

When he first moved to Buxa, Choyang Kuten Lama did not have many friends, but as time went by, he developed deep connections and friendships. He remained there and helped everyone he encountered for about ten years.
4 Jul 21, 09:13 PM
Joy_Moderator: Well summarised Jacinta... it is another evidence how the enlightened Dharmapala Dorje Shugden helps everyone regardless. It is us human beings, who create the discrimination and politics :(
4 Jul 21, 09:12 PM
Pastor Antoinette: 5. When Choyang Kuten Lama went to South India, what did he do to help and serve his people? What does it say about him as an oracle and a person?

After living in Buxa for ten years, Choyang Kuten Lama and the other Tibetan refugees moved to the Tibetan Rehabilitation Centre in South India. He continued to serve the Tibetan refugee community as an oracle.
He was elected to be the Secretary of the Co-operative Society which is a society of 600 monks consisting of the four traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. Choyang Kuten Lama served in this capacity until 1973. Up until then, allegations that Dorje Shugden practitioners were obsessively sectarian were unheard of.

He appealed to the Indian government for financial assistance to build accommodations for the monks of the various traditions.
Choyang Kuten Lama also acted as the Vice President of the Tibetan Freedom Movement and in that position he would relay the 14th Dalai Lama’s speeches and various official announcements to the Tibetan refugee community.

The Choyang Kuten Lama was well received and well respected by the community who placed their trust in him. In addition, they believed that he was efficient and educated.
4 Jul 21, 09:11 PM
Fhsam: 5.Choyang Kuten Lama and the other Tibetan refugees moved to the Tibetan Rehabilitation Centre in South India. He continued to serve the Tibetan refugee community as an oracle. Due to his esteemed position, and the fact that he was a senior Tibetan from Tibet, he was well received and well respected by the community who placed their trust in him. In addition, they believed that he was efficient and educated. Therefore, they elected him to be the Secretary of the Co-operative Society which is a society of 600 monks consisting of the four traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. Choyang Kuten Lama served in this capacity until 1973.
4 Jul 21, 09:11 PM
Joy_Moderator: Most welcome Kat... just jump to the last question and do read the answer Q4 later... it helps you understand how the protectors and being tested if they are genuine by the high lamas
4 Jul 21, 09:11 PM
Jacinta: A5. 1. When he arrived in Buxa, he served everyone regardless of which sect they belonged to, not only the Gelugpas.
2. He participated in many conferences held in Dharamsala and New Delhi.
3. When he moved to the Tibetan Rehabilitation Centre in South India, he became Secretary of the Co-operative Society.
4.Vice President of the Tibetan Freedom Movement and in that position he would relay the 14th Dalai Lama’s speeches and various official announcements to the Tibetan refugee community.
. While in that capacity as mentioned, Kuten Lama helped everyone, regardless their background or religious practices and their sects. Choyang Kuten Lama’s life, in and out of trance, is testimony that the accusations and charges against Dorje Shugden people are false. He remained loyal to the Tibetan Cause and the Dalai Lama throughout his life.
4 Jul 21, 09:08 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Yee Mun, Pastor Shin and Pastor Adeline can move on to last question for this evening > 5. When Choyang Kuten Lama went to South India, what did he do to help and serve his people? What does it say about him as an oracle and a person?
4 Jul 21, 09:08 PM
Katrina: Thank u Valentina, Pastor Antoinette, Aunty Joy, Jacinta & Pastor Shin for sharing!
4 Jul 21, 09:08 PM
Pastor Adeline: A4. Choyang Kuten Lama took trance of Duldzin (peaceful form of Dorje Shugden), Dorje Shugden, Setrap, Kache Marpo and various other deities.

In 1939, Choyang Kuten Lama took the final examination in front of approximately two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery. He was instructed to engage in a seven-day purification retreat before the ceremony. During the ceremony, two sets of papers were rolled into pills. The first set contained two pills with these options written:
> Gyalchen Dorje Shugden
> A being who could not gain rebirth from the intermediate state (bardo).

The second set of paper pills were prepared for Dharmapala Setrap.

During his first trance, Choyang Kuten Lama was offered the first set of pills and he ate the pill with “Gyalchen Dorje Shugden” written on it. 

In the second test, he took trance of Dharmapala Setrap, and when prompted he pointed to the pill with Dharmapala Setrap written on it and threw the other pills away.

At the conclusion of the examination, four years after his first trance in Bodhgaya, the 21-year-old Choyang Kuten Lama was approved as an authentic oracle of both Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Dharmapala Setrap.
4 Jul 21, 09:07 PM
Pastor Shin: A4. Kuten Lama took trance of Dorje Shugden, Setrap, Kache Marpo, and various other deities.

In 1939, the final examination of Choyang Kuten Lama was conducted in front of approximately two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery. During the ceremony, two sets of papers were rolled into pills. The first set contained two pills with these options written:
Gyalchen Dorje Shugden
A being who could not gain rebirth from the intermediate state (bardo)
The second set of paper pills were prepared for Dharmapala Setrap. During his first trance, Choyang Kuten Lama was offered the first set of pills and he ate the pill with “Gyalchen Dorje Shugden” written on it. In the second test, he took trance of Dharmapala Setrap, and when prompted he pointed to the pill with Dharmapala Setrap written on it and threw the other pills away.
4 Jul 21, 09:07 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A4 : The protectors that the Kuten Lama took trance of were Dharmapala Setrap and Dorje Shugden.

In 1939, the final examination of Choyang Kuten Lama was conducted in front of approximately two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery. Before the ceremony, he was instructed to engage in a seven-day purification retreat. During the ceremony, two sets of papers were rolled into pills. The first set contained two pills with these options written:

Gyalchen Dorje Shugden
A being who could not gain rebirth from the intermediate state (bardo)
The second set of paper pills were prepared for Dharmapala Setrap. During his first trance, Choyang Kuten Lama was offered the first set of pills and he ate the pill with “Gyalchen Dorje Shugden” written on it. In the second test, he took trance of Dharmapala Setrap, and when prompted he pointed to the pill with Dharmapala Setrap written on it and threw the other pills away.
4 Jul 21, 09:07 PM
Pastor Antoinette: 4. Who were the protectors that the Kuten Lama took trance of? And how did Choyang Kuten Lama took his final examination that proved he is an authentic oracle of both Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Dharmapala Setrap?

The Kuten Lama took trance of various Protectors, Dorje Shugden and Setrap, Kache Marpo, and various other deities.

In 1939, the final examination of Choyang Kuten Lama was conducted in front of approximately two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery. During the ceremony, two sets of papers were rolled into pills. He chose the correct pills and proved his qualification. At the conclusion of the examination, four years after his first trance in Bodhgaya, the 21-year-old Choyang Kuten Lama was approved as an authentic oracle of both Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Dharmapala Setrap.
4 Jul 21, 09:06 PM
Joy_Moderator: For the last question, you will need to click on the TAB: Exile & Legacy ya
4 Jul 21, 09:05 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Sam... @Andrea, do take a look at the answers below :)
4 Jul 21, 09:04 PM
Fhsam: 4. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche’s final observations and conclusions were corroborated by other important high lamas In 1939, the final examination of Choyang Kuten Lama was conducted in front of approximately two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery. Before the ceremony, he was instructed to engage in a seven-day purification retreat. During the ceremony, two sets of papers were rolled into pills. The first set contained two pills with these options written:

Gyalchen Dorje Shugden
A being who could not gain rebirth from the intermediate state (bardo)
The second set of paper pills were prepared for Dharmapala Setrap. During his first trance, Choyang Kuten Lama was offered the first set of pills and he ate the pill with “Gyalchen Dorje Shugden” written on it. In the second test, he took trance of Dharmapala Setrap, and when prompted he pointed to the pill with Dharmapala Setrap written on it and threw the other pills away.
4 Jul 21, 09:03 PM
Andrea Lai: A4: The Protectors that the Kuten Lama took trance of are Dorje Shugden, Setrap and Kache Marpo. By invitation to Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and Purbuchok Rinpoche to observe and identify the deity who was taking trance in Choyang Kuten Lama’s body. While the examination process was in progress, Choyang Kuten Lama was put under the care of Kyabje Zong Rinpoche of Gaden Shartse Monastery. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche advised him to do many purification practices and also perform the recitation of name mantras of Lama Tsongkhapa to enable clear signs to appear.
4 Jul 21, 09:03 PM
Joy_Moderator: Since we started late, this will be our final question for this evening > 5. When Choyang Kuten Lama went to South India, what did he do to help and serve his people? What does it say about him as an oracle and a person?
4 Jul 21, 09:03 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Val for your answer you can move on to the final question...
4 Jul 21, 09:02 PM
Joy_Moderator: 4. Who were the protectors that the Kuten Lama took trance of? And how did Choyang Kuten Lama took his final examination that proved he is an authentic oracle of both Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Dharmapala Setrap?

- Duldzin - peaceful form of Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden, Setrap, Kache Marpo and various other deities.

- In 1939, the final examination of Choyang Kuten Lama was conducted in front of approximately two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery. Before the ceremony, he was instructed to engage in a seven-day purification retreat. During the ceremony, two sets of papers were rolled into pills. The first set contained two pills with these options written:
* Gyalchen Dorje Shugden
* A being who could not gain rebirth from the intermediate state (bardo)

The second set of paper pills were prepared for Dharmapala Setrap. During his first trance, Choyang Kuten Lama was offered the first set of pills and he ate the pill with “Gyalchen Dorje Shugden” written on it. 

In the second test, he took trance of Dharmapala Setrap, and when prompted he pointed to the pill with Dharmapala Setrap written on it and threw the other pills away.

At the conclusion of the examination, four years after his first trance in Bodhgaya, the 21-year-old Choyang Kuten Lama was approved as an authentic oracle of both Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Dharmapala Setrap. 
4 Jul 21, 09:01 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thanks Pastor Shin for your answer to Kat's question :) and you are most welcome Jacinta
4 Jul 21, 09:00 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Jacinta... good find! And thanks Pastor Adeline for your Q3 answer :)
4 Jul 21, 09:00 PM
Valentina: ANS 4

The protectors that Kuten Lama took trance of were Dorje Shugden and Dharmapala Setrap.

Choyang Kuten passed his final examination in 1939 in front of approx. two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery.

Before the ceremony, he was instructed to engage in a seven-day purification retreat. During the ceremony, two sets of papers were rolled into pills. The first set contained two pills with these options written:
Gyalchen Dorje Shugden
A being who could not gain rebirth from the intermediate state (bardo)
The second set of paper pills were prepared for Dharmapala Setrap. During his first trance, Choyang Kuten Lama was offered the first set of pills and he ate the pill with “Gyalchen Dorje Shugden” written on it. In the second test, he took trance of Dharmapala Setrap, and when prompted he pointed to the pill with Dharmapala Setrap written on it and threw the other pills away.
4 Jul 21, 08:59 PM
Pastor Adeline: A3. When Rinpoche was staying Zong Rinpoche's ladrang in Gaden monastery, India, Rinpoche's room was just a dirt path and a gate away from the oracle’s, Kuten-la’s house. Next to Kuten-la's house was the oracle Dorje Shugden chapel where he would also take trance.

For Rinpoche to walk over to his house is literally one minute and one and a half minutes to the chapel.


Because Kuten-la was living next to Rinpoche, he used to walk over to Rinpoche's window and knock on it and Rinpoche would open it. Rinpoche also used to go slowly visit him at his house and as Rinpoche's Tibetan improved, Rinpoche was able to talk more and more with him and understand him more.

After Rinpoche became friends with Kuten-la, Rinpoche would be hanging out with him in his room, drinking tea, joking and etc.

Rinpoche used to go to kuten-la's house quite often and sometimes Rinpoche would oversleep and miss pujas in the morning so Rinpoche didn’t get breakfast. Rinpoche would be in his room thinking, “Now what do I do?” And Kuten-la would knock on Rinpoche's window and say, “Have you had breakfast?” and within five minutes brought a thermos filled with tea and a couple of new, fresh Tibetan bread for Rinpoche.
4 Jul 21, 08:58 PM
Jacinta: Thanks for the sharing Joy.
4 Jul 21, 08:57 PM
Jacinta: A4. Kuten Lama can take trance of few deities, that included Dharmapala DS, Setrap and Karche Marpo. In 1939, the final examination of Choyang Kuten Lama was conducted in front of approximately two thousand monks of Gaden Shartse Monastery. During his first trance, Choyang Kuten Lama was offered the first set of pills and he ate the pill with “Gyalchen Dorje Shugden” written on it. In the second test, he took trance of Dharmapala Setrap, and when prompted he pointed to the pill with Dharmapala Setrap written on it and threw the other pills away. This proved the authenticity of his trance and both Dharmapala DS and Setrap approved.
4 Jul 21, 08:57 PM
Pastor Shin: Hi Katrina,

If so, doesn't it defeat the logic of some dharma protectors serving the dharma as they would still have ulterior motives?
>> Then why are WE (unenlightened beings) served the Dharma as we too would still have ulterior motives? Unenlightened Dharma Protectors are oath bound (sworn) to do their "job" and subdued by highly attained Lamas or enlightened beings like Guru Rinpoche/Padmasambhava who would "deal with them" or could "destroy" them. In fact, Dharma Protectors are actually called upon by lamas and teachers who are powerful to protect or do Dharma work. According to Serkong Rinpoche, who was one of the teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, for these lamas, having a protector is like having a very strong and vicious dog. That's how great lamas view/summon/command a Dharma Protector, but our level of course we cannot do that. But because the practice is given by our lama, hence, we can trust that the protectors won't harm us and would do as they were told/how they were bound by the oath they have sworn/taken. Also, unenlightened Dharma Protectors were subdued to stop the harm they were causing (harming humans usually), and hence it is a way for them to stop harming and collect merit by doing Dharma work.

4 Jul 21, 08:54 PM
Joy_Moderator: Good answer Jacinta. We do not take refuge in them but some are helpful and especially those who are oath bound to help like Nechung. And because they keep helping, they also collect merits. Like Nechung will one day collect enough merits to propel him to become enlightened... and this is when Dorje Shugden will then take over/as in take charge and will be the main protector for all in Tibetan Buddhism as predicted.
4 Jul 21, 08:51 PM
Joy_Moderator: 4. Who were the protectors that the Kuten Lama took trance of? And how did Choyang Kuten Lama took his final examination that proved he is an authentic oracle of both Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Dharmapala Setrap?
4 Jul 21, 08:50 PM
Jacinta: Hi Katrina, here is my opinion. Basically, we are advised not to seek advice from unenlightened beings. Yes, they are still bound by karma. But having said so, on the other hand, it is still beneficial to ask for their help although they are unenlightened as they might be there to help us genuinely. It's just like some of our friends who are beneficial and genuinely wanted to share some knowledge with us although they might not be the prefect teacher in that field. Besides, in the article, it is mentioned that Rinpoche's cysts was healed by a benevolent mountain god.
4 Jul 21, 08:50 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Andrea and Yee Mun for Q3 answer
4 Jul 21, 08:49 PM
Joy_Moderator: Beside what Valentina said @Kat this is my sharing...

Would unenlightened protectors also have negative karma. If so, doesn't it defeat the logic of some dharma protectors serving the dharma as they would still have ulterior motives?

Yes an unenlightened Dharma protector would have negative karma to still purify but since they are bound by oath like how Nechung is bound by Guru Rinpoche to SWEAR to protect Dharma in general and Tibet. They cannot break that oath, it is like a vow. So of course the one’s that are not bound, even more so we should not seek their help. Read this more to know about Nechung > https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/nechung-the-retiring-devil-of-tibet.html
Hence, they cannot do funny things or else there will be consequences since they are bound by the Lama.

And how would it be logical for some lamas who are regarded as enlightened beings trust their advices when it could be for a negative motivation?

Like you say the Lama are enlightened or highly attained so they will know if the deity taking trance is giving false or accurate answers/good or bad motivation… like in the Tibetan exile government they have a few unenlightened protectors taking trances and giving them predictions. So, just like how they also test Dorje Shugden oracles while in trance to check their authenticity and no demon/evil deity dares to take trance in front of a high lama. They know they will get it, the lama’s are able to see and tell.
4 Jul 21, 08:48 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A3 : Rinpoche lived next to Choyang Kuten Lama. Rinpoche used to visit him. When Rinpoche has not eaten, CHoyang Kutan Lama will bring him a thermos filled with tea, bread and food.
4 Jul 21, 08:47 PM
Andrea Lai: Q3: How did Rinpoche became close to Choyang Kuten Lama? What did Kuten Lama do when Rinpoche did not go to class and has not eaten? A3: Rinpoche being stay next to him and he used to walk over to Rinpoche's window and knock on it. Rinpoche used to go slowly visit Kuten Lama at his house and as his Tibetan improved, Rinpoche would be able to talk more and more with him and understand him more. When Rinpoche did not go to class and has not eaten, Kuten Lama will bring thermos filled with tea and a couple of new, fresh Tibetan bread for Rinpoche.
4 Jul 21, 08:47 PM
Pastor Antoinette: Katrina: Oh I do have a question, if by the logic of how enlightened beings are no longer bound by karma. Would unenlightened protectors also have negative karma. If so, doesn't it defeat the logic of some dharma protectors serving the dharma as they would still have ulterior motives? And how would it be logical for some lamas who are regarded as enlightened beings trust their advices when it could be for a negative motivation?

Lamas will not trust unenlightened protectors. They will only rely on enlightened protectors.
Unenlightened protectors who assist enlightened beings are bound and will do as they promised to the enlightened being who bound them.
4 Jul 21, 08:46 PM
Joy_Moderator: 3. How did Rinpoche became close to Choyang Kuten Lama? What did Kuten Lama do when Rinpoche did not go to class and has not eaten?

- Choyang Kuten Lama used to walk over to Rinpoche’s window and knock on it and tell Rinpoche to come over and just hang out with him. Rinpoche would be amazed because this was the oracle that takes trance of very great Protectors for so many people and there he is. It’s like meeting a superstar to Rinpoche.
- Sometime Kuten Lama would knock on Rinpoche's door and bring him fresh Tibetan bread and tea if Rinpoche missed the classes in the morning.
- Rinpoche used to go visit Kuten Lama at his house and as Rinpoche’s Tibetan improved, he was able to talk more and more with him and understand him more.
- When Rinpoche was free, Rinpoche would just go over to visit him and bring him some fruits or whatever and there’d always be delicious, fresh cups of Tibetan tea, khapsey, snacks, biscuits, food (at his house), because he’s very generous. So Rinpoche developed a very close friendship with him in this way.
4 Jul 21, 08:46 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Sam and Pastor Shin
4 Jul 21, 08:45 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Val, Jacinta and Pastor Antoinette so nice isn't he. Thank Sam and Pastor Adeline for your Q2 answers
4 Jul 21, 08:43 PM
Pastor Shin: A3. Kuten-la's house was behind Rinpoche's room in the monastery, with a dirt path about eight to nine feet between Rinpoche's room and his house that was enough for a small car to drive through. Kuten-la lived there with his assistants and attendants. Next to Kuten-la's house was the oracle Dorje Shugden chapel where he would also take trance. It would take Rinpoche just 1 or 1.5 minutes to get to the house and the chapel. Because Kuten-la lived literally "next" to Rinpoche, he used to walk over to RInpoche's window and knock on it, and Rinpoche would open the window and see Kuten-la.

Rinpoche then slowly went to visit Kuten-la at his house and as Rinpoche's Tibetan improved, Rinpoche was able to talk more and more with him and understand him more. Very often Kuten-la would always knock on Rinpoche's window and tell Rinpoche to go over and just hang out with him. When Rinpoche was free, Rinpoche would just go and visit Kuten-la also, bringing him some fruits or whatever and there’d always be delicious, fresh cups of Tibetan tea, khapsey, snacks, biscuits, food (at his house), because he’s very generous.

Kuten Lama always knocked on Rinpoche's window and asked if Rinpoche had eaten, and if not, Kuten Lama would go back to his house and bring back thermos filled with tea and a couple of new, fresh Tibetan bread for Rinpoche. Kuten Lama did this quite often.
4 Jul 21, 08:43 PM
Valentina: Dear Katrina

Unenlightened protector are beings bound by promises to high lamas or other enlightened beings to protect the Dharma. Because they have not been enlightened, they do not have certain qualities that only enlightened beings have. For example, their clairvoyance are limited. Therefore, although they can be beneficial in protecting the Dharma and in doing what they have promised to do, they are not an object of refuge like enlightened being.
4 Jul 21, 08:43 PM
Fhsam: 3. eaten?Choyang Kuten lama lived next to me, he used to walk over to my window and knock on it and I’d open it and there he was. And I’d be amazed because this was the oracle that takes trance of very great Protectors for so many people and there he is. It’s like meeting a superstar. Basically in Tibetan society he was like a superstar. And because of that, he used to come and knock on my window. I used to go slowly visit him at his house and as my Tibetan improved, I was able to talk more and more with him and understand him more. So very often he would always knock on my window and tell me to come over and just hang out with him. Or when I was free, I would just go and visit him. I would bring him some fruits or whatever and there’d always be delicious, fresh cups of Tibetan tea, khapsey, snacks, biscuits, food (at his house), because he’s very generous. So I developed a very close friendship with him, I am humbled and honoured to say. he would always give me food or give me stuff through the window. I mean he’d literally walk out of his house with a thermos, bread, food, whatever… and then knock on my window and then pass it to me.
4 Jul 21, 08:41 PM
Pastor Adeline: A2. Interesting facts about Kuten Lama that made him different:

(1) He had a ‘Kungo’ title that he had received for giving exceptional service to the Tibetan Government throughout his life. He used to raise funds for the Tibetan Government, he would organise meetings and gatherings and events. Most importantly, he took trance of various Protectors, Dorje Shugden and Setrap for the Tibetan Government.

(2) He wasn’t a monk.

(3) He was a layperson.

(4) He hadn’t officially studied Dharma.

(5) He was never in the monastic curriculum.

(6) He wasn’t a learned Dharma person although he knew Dharma.

(7) He wasn’t a teacher and he didn’t have disciples. People did not go to him for teachings or people did not consider him a guru, although they respected him highly.

(8) When he is out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person.
4 Jul 21, 08:41 PM
Pastor Antoinette: 3. How did Rinpoche became close to Choyang Kuten Lama? What did Kuten Lama do when Rinpoche did not go to class and has not eaten?

Rinpoche was living very close to the Kuten Lamas house and met him at his house. He would witness how much the Kuten Lama did and how beneficial he was.

The Kuten Lama would knock on Rinpoche's door and bring him fresh Tibetan bread and tea if Rinpoche missed the classes in the morning.
4 Jul 21, 08:40 PM
Jacinta: 3. When Rinpoche went to India to become a monk, Rinpoche lived in the previous Kyabje Zong Rinpoche's residence. It was basically a cow shed. However, Rinpoche was very lucky because just behind his house, it was Kuten Lama's residence and Rinpoche often visited him and vice versa. At one point, Rinpoche even became his unofficial secretary as Rinpoche knew EnglishThey got closer because of that. Nearly Kuten Lama would bring tea in a termos and bread to Rinpoche when he knew Rinpoche hasn't eaten.
4 Jul 21, 08:40 PM
Valentina: ANS 3

Rinpoche and Choyang Kuten Lama lived closed to each other in the monastery and often visited each other. When Rinpoche overslept and missed the morning puja and therefore his breakfast, Choyang Kuten Lama would offer him food and drink through Rinpoche's window.
4 Jul 21, 08:38 PM
Joy_Moderator: 2. What was so interestingly different about the Kuten Lama?
- He wasn’t a monk but a layperson.
- He hadn’t officially studied Dharma. He was never in the monastic curriculum. He wasn’t a learned Dharma person.
- He wasn’t a teacher. He didn’t have disciples. He didn’t have students. People did not go to him for teachings or people did not consider him a guru, although they respected him highly.
- So out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person.
- So when he was out of trance, he was just an elderly aristocratic looking Tibetan gentlemen, and he wasn’t a monk.

4 Jul 21, 08:38 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Sam :)
4 Jul 21, 08:38 PM
Joy_Moderator: Good Question Katrina... anyone can try to give an answer >>> Katrina: Oh I do have a question, if by the logic of how enlightened beings are no longer bound by karma. Would unenlightened protectors also have negative karma. If so, doesn't it defeat the logic of some dharma protectors serving the dharma as they would still have ulterior motives? And how would it be logical for some lamas who are regarded as enlightened beings trust their advices when it could be for a negative motivation?
4 Jul 21, 08:37 PM
Fhsam: . A2 Kuten Lama was a very interesting person because he wasn’t a monk. He was a layperson. He hadn’t officially studied Dharma. He was never in the monastic curriculum. He wasn’t a learned Dharma person. I mean he knew Dharma, but he wasn’t a learned person. He wasn’t a teacher. He didn’t have disciples. He didn’t have students. People did not go to him for teachings or people did not consider him a guru, although they respected him highly. So out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person. So when he was out of trance, he was just an elderly aristocratic looking Tibetan gentlemen,
4 Jul 21, 08:36 PM
Joy_Moderator: Ahhh thank you Andrea :) yes oracles have been around for centuries and is not uncommon, just enlightened or unenlightened. Andrea Lai: A: I only got to know about oracle thru my friends and during Nine Gods Festival back then. When I started Tibetan Buddhism, I was surprised even high lamas depend on oracle to make predictions. I found it very interesting. @Joy_Moderator: Just curious have any of you ever experienced an oracle before you met Choje-la (DS oracle)? What was your thoughts then?
4 Jul 21, 08:35 PM
Katrina: Oh I do have a question, if by the logic of how enlightened beings are no longer bound by karma. Would unenlightened protectors also have negative karma. If so, doesn't it defeat the logic of some dharma protectors serving the dharma as they would still have ulterior motives? And how would it be logical for some lamas who are regarded as enlightened beings trust their advices when it could be for a negative motivation?
4 Jul 21, 08:34 PM
Andrea Lai: A: I only got to know about oracle thru my friends and during Nine Gods Festival back then. When I started Tibetan Buddhism, I was surprised even high lamas depend on oracle to make predictions. I found it very interesting. @Joy_Moderator: Just curious have any of you ever experienced an oracle before you met Choje-la (DS oracle)? What was your thoughts then?
4 Jul 21, 08:34 PM
Joy_Moderator: 3. How did Rinpoche became close to Choyang Kuten Lama? What did Kuten Lama do when Rinpoche did not go to class and has not eaten?
4 Jul 21, 08:33 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you for your answers to Q2 Jacinta, Andrea, Val and Pastor Antoinetteand Yee Mun and thank you Pastor Adeline for your answer to Q1 --- very nice formatting, easy to read 🌟
4 Jul 21, 08:32 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A2 : Kuten Lama was a very interesting person because he wasn’t a monk. He was a layperson. He hadn’t officially studied Dharma. He was never in the monastic curriculum. He wasn’t a learned Dharma person. I mean he knew Dharma, but he wasn’t a learned person. He wasn’t a teacher. He didn’t have disciples. He didn’t have students. People did not go to him for teachings or people did not consider him a guru, although they respected him highly. So out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person. So when he was out of trance, he was just an elderly aristocratic looking Tibetan gentlemen, and he wasn’t a monk.
4 Jul 21, 08:31 PM
Joy_Moderator: Ya but the answer just now was PAK lol Pastor Adeline: I am here :biggrin: @Joy_Moderator: Thank you Pastor Antoinette for your detailed answer 🙏🏼 sorry thought u were PAW 😬
4 Jul 21, 08:30 PM
Pastor Antoinette: 2. What was so interestingly different about the Kuten Lama?

he was a very interesting person because he wasn’t a monk. He was a layperson. He hadn’t officially studied Dharma. He was never in the monastic curriculum. He wasn’t a learned Dharma person. I mean he knew Dharma, but he wasn’t a learned person. He wasn’t a teacher. He didn’t have disciples. He didn’t have students. People did not go to him for teachings or people did not consider him a guru, although they respected him highly. So out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person.
4 Jul 21, 08:29 PM
Valentina: ANS 2

Kuten Lama was interestingly different back in Gaden monastery because:

>. He was not a monk. He was a layperson. He hadn’t officially studied Dharma. He was never in the monastic curriculum.

> out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person.

> He used to raise funds for the Tibetan Government, he would organise meetings and gatherings and events. And he also took trance of various Protectors, Dorje Shugden and Setrap namely, for the Tibetan Government.
4 Jul 21, 08:29 PM
Pastor Adeline: I am here :biggrin: @Joy_Moderator: Thank you Pastor Antoinette for your detailed answer 🙏🏼 sorry thought u were PAW 😬
4 Jul 21, 08:29 PM
Andrea Lai: A2: What was so interesting and different about Kuten Lama was he wasn’t a monk. He was a layperson. He hadn’t officially studied Dharma. He was never in the monastic curriculum. He wasn’t a learned Dharma person. I mean he knew Dharma, but he wasn’t a learned person. He wasn’t a teacher. He didn’t have disciples. He didn’t have students. People did not go to him for teachings or people did not consider him a guru, although they respected him highly. So out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person. So when he was out of trance, he was just an elderly aristocratic looking Tibetan gentlemen, and he wasn’t a monk.
4 Jul 21, 08:29 PM
Pastor Antoinette: That wouldn't happen if you could see me lol. No worries. Joy_Moderator: Thank you Pastor Antoinette for your detailed answer 🙏🏼 sorry thought u were PAW 😬
4 Jul 21, 08:29 PM
Pastor Adeline: Hello, Joy and everyone!

A1. (1) Type 1: Oracles that takes full trance of an entity that can use that person and use that person’s body to do work.

(2) Type 2: Oracles that can transmit information, without taking trance, but they send images, or premonitions, or words or dates, to the person, and that person is able to relay what the entity is trying to convey without having to take trance.

(3) Type 3: Oracles that can do channelling, whereby the person who owns the body doesn’t go to sleep or doesn’t go unconscious while the entity inhabits their body and speaks through them.

There are different types of channellers:
(1) Channellers that can feel and hear what the entity is saying through them.
(2) Channellers that cannot remember. Although they don’t go unconscious, but they tune out and the entity takes over and the entity speaks through them and then they can leave.

In a nutshell, there are oracles that take full trance of an entity; oracles that receive messages in pictures, words, sounds, from an entity; oracles that can take light channelling of an entity, where the person doesn’t fall asleep or go unconscious.
4 Jul 21, 08:28 PM
Pastor Shin: A2. Kuten Lama or Kungo Choje-la wasn’t a monk although he was the oracle for Gaden Monastery. He was a layperson. He hadn’t officially studied Dharma. He was never in the monastic curriculum. He wasn’t a learned Dharma person. He wasn’t a teacher. He didn’t have disciples. He didn’t have students. People did not go to him for teachings or people did not consider him a guru, although they respected him highly. So out of trance, he was basically an ordinary Tibetan man that was good in reading and writing and literate, and highly intelligent, had a powerful presence, extremely charismatic, and had beautiful aristocratic, Tibetan features, had a deep, penetrating voice, and basically was a very nice person. So when he was out of trance, he was just an elderly aristocratic looking Tibetan gentlemen.

Because he was an oracle, then the monastery had allotted him a house and the land, and on the land, the oracle lived there and at the initiative of Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, they had raised funds to build a special oracle temple next to his house, which was a special chapel dedicated to Dorje Shugden.
4 Jul 21, 08:28 PM
Jacinta: A2. Kuten Lama was a layman, wasn't a learned man although he knew about Dharma. So, he wasn't a teacher but was able to take trance of various Protectors, Dorje Shugden, Karche Marpo and Setrap. Hence, during trance, it was interesting to note that he was capable to give initiation although he didn't know the rituals and the things involved.
4 Jul 21, 08:26 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Yee Mun ;)
4 Jul 21, 08:26 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Pastor Antoinette for your detailed answer 🙏🏼 sorry thought u were PAW 😬
4 Jul 21, 08:25 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A1 : - oracle is someone who has the ability to take ‘full trance’ of another entity, and that entity is able to speak, heal, predict, prophesise, give advice, or whatever, through that person’s body. So an oracle is someone that takes full trance of an entity that can use that person and use that person’s body to do work.
- oracle can also be someone that transmits information, where they don’t actually take trance, but they send images, or they send premonitions, or they send words or dates, to the person, and that person is able to relay what the entity is trying to convey without having to take trance.
- also have oracles that can do channelling. Channelling is when the person who owns the body doesn’t go to sleep or doesn’t go unconscious while the entity inhabits their body and speaks through them.
There are channellers that can feel and hear what the entity is saying through them, and there are channellers that cannot remember. Although they don’t go unconscious, but they tune out and the entity takes over and the entity speaks through them and then they can leave. In fact, a few entities can come and go and speak through them, and the person doesn’t go unconscious. The person can become a little exhausted afterwards because there’s a heavy toll on the body.
4 Jul 21, 08:25 PM
Joy_Moderator: If you have any questions Kat, feel free to ask ya
4 Jul 21, 08:24 PM
Joy_Moderator: Yes Katrina... and to add there are different types of channellers. There are channellers that can feel and hear what the entity is saying through them, and there are channellers that cannot remember. Although they don’t go unconscious, but they tune out and the entity takes over and the entity speaks through them and then they can leave.
4 Jul 21, 08:23 PM
Katrina: 1. There 3 diff ways the oracles can communicate/send messages to us, which are through channeling, taking trance & without having to take trance. Channeling happens when an entity takes over the body while the oracle is still conscious. Taking trance would be when the mind of the person whose body is being used would go unconscious while the entity takes over. This way, the entity would have full control of the person's body. Lastly, the oracles that don't take trances would receive the messages via premonitions to the oracle with the oracle being able to understand and convey the message.
4 Jul 21, 08:22 PM
Joy_Moderator: 2. What was so interestingly different about the Kuten Lama?
4 Jul 21, 08:21 PM
Joy_Moderator: 1. What are the many different types of oracles are there in terms of how they take trance and how they communicate/send messages to us as mentioned by Rinpoche?

- There are oracles that takes full trance of an entity that can use that person and use that person’s body to do work.
- There are oracles that can transmit information, without taking trance, but they send images, or premonitions, or words or dates, to the person, and that person is able to relay what the entity is trying to convey without having to take trance.
- Then are also oracles that can do channelling, whereby the person who owns the body doesn’t go to sleep or doesn’t go unconscious while the entity inhabits their body and speaks through them. 
- There are different types of channellers. There are channellers that can feel and hear what the entity is saying through them, and there are channellers that cannot remember. Although they don’t go unconscious, but they tune out and the entity takes over and the entity speaks through them and then they can leave.
- In a nutshell, you have oracles that take full trance of an entity. You have oracles that receive messages in pictures, words, sounds, from an entity. And you have oracles that can take light channelling of an entity, where the person doesn’t fall asleep or go unconscious.
4 Jul 21, 08:21 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Pastor Shin and Pastor Adeline
4 Jul 21, 08:21 PM
Pastor Antoinette: 1. What are the many different types of oracles are there in terms of how they take trance and how they communicate/send messages to us as mentioned by Rinpoche?

An oracle is someone that takes full trance of an entity that can use that person and use that person’s body to do work.

You have oracles that take full trance of an entity.
You have oracles that receive messages in pictures, words, sounds, from an entity.
And you have oracles that can take light channelling of an entity, where the person doesn’t fall asleep or go unconscious.

Trance is when the person who owns the body totally goes unconscious or goes asleep, and the entity fully takes over. So the entity can write, they can walk, they can run, they can speak, they can draw, they can drink liquids, they can eat, they can perform rituals, they can do everything.

And then you have the oracles that take channelling, where there’s partial control of the speech and body by the entity, and the person who’s channelling does not necessarily have to go to sleep or go unconscious.

Some oracles can do all three. Some oracles can do one out of three. Some oracles can do two out of three. It just depends. Now what does it depend on? It depends on the oracle themselves and/or depends on the entity.
4 Jul 21, 08:20 PM
Joy_Moderator: I've seen many who takes trance of local deities and Gods, most Taoist, and I always thought these were something not quite okay with it... I guess because the offerings people make to them is alcohol and meat so I was not too keen. Did not think they were the "good" Gods. But I have also seen those who take trance and paid homage to Rinpoche especially during Tsog last time in KH.
4 Jul 21, 08:20 PM
Jacinta: Nope. But definitely would like to hear from those who had. @Joy_Moderator: Just curious have any of you ever experienced an oracle before you met Choje-la (DS oracle)? What was your thoughts then? Do share 🙏🏼
4 Jul 21, 08:19 PM
Pastor Shin: A1. There are those who take trance - when the person who owns the body totally goes unconscious or goes asleep, and the entity fully takes over.

Then there are those who take channelling - when the person who owns the body doesn’t go to sleep or doesn’t go unconscious while the entity inhabits their body and speaks through them. There are channellers that can feel and hear what the entity is saying through them, and there are channellers that cannot remember. Although they don’t go unconscious, but they tune out and the entity takes over and the entity speaks through them and then they can leave.

Rinpoche said some oracles can do all three. Some oracles can do one out of three. Some oracles can do two out of three.
4 Jul 21, 08:18 PM
Joy_Moderator: Just curious have any of you ever experienced an oracle before you met Choje-la (DS oracle)? What was your thoughts then? Do share 🙏🏼
4 Jul 21, 08:17 PM
Joy_Moderator: Thank you Sam 👍🏼
4 Jul 21, 08:16 PM
Joy_Moderator: Hello Yee Mun 👋🏼
4 Jul 21, 08:16 PM
Joy_Moderator: Good summary Jacinta, Valentina, Andrea
4 Jul 21, 08:15 PM
Fhsam: 1. What are the many different types of oracles are there in terms of how they take trance and how they communicate/send messages to us as mentioned by Rinpoche?So you have oracles that take full trance of an entity. You have oracles that receive messages in pictures, words, sounds, from an entity. And you have oracles that can take light channelling of an entity, where the person doesn’t fall asleep or go unconscious.

Now the difference between a person who takes trance and channels… Trance is when the person who owns the body totally goes unconscious or goes asleep, and the entity fully takes over. So the entity can write, they can walk, they can run, they can speak, they can draw, they can drink liquids, they can eat, they can perform rituals, they can do everything. And then you have the oracles that take channelling, where there’s partial control of the speech and body by the entity, and the person who’s channelling does not necessarily have to go to sleep or go unconscious.
4 Jul 21, 08:15 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): Good evening Rinpoche, Joy, Pastor and everyone.
4 Jul 21, 08:15 PM
Andrea Lai: A1: An oracle is someone who has the ability to take ‘full trance’ of another entity, and that entity is able to speak, heal, predict, prophesise, give advice, or whatever, through that person’s body. So an oracle is someone that takes full trance of an entity that can use that person and use that person’s body to do work.

An oracle can also be someone that transmits information, where they don’t actually take trance, but they send images, or they send premonitions, or they send words or dates, to the person, and that person is able to relay what the entity is trying to convey without having to take trance. Then you also have oracles that can do channelling. And what is channelling? Channelling is when the person who owns the body doesn’t go to sleep or doesn’t go unconscious while the entity inhabits their body and speaks through them.
4 Jul 21, 08:15 PM
Valentina: ANS 1

> There are oracles that can transmit information without taking trance. The entity send images, or they send premonitions, or they send words or dates, to the person, and that person is able to relay what the entity is trying to convey without having to take trance.


>Channeling - There are also oracles that can do channelling. Channelling is when the person who owns the body doesn’t go to sleep or doesn’t go unconscious while the entity inhabits their body and speaks through them. Now there are different types of channellers. There are channellers that can feel and hear what the entity is saying through them, and there are channellers that cannot remember. Although they don’t go unconscious, but they tune out and the entity takes over and the entity speaks through them and then they can leave. In fact, a few entities can come and go and speak through them, and the person doesn’t go unconscious. The person can become a little exhausted afterwards because there’s a heavy toll on the body.

> There are oracles that can take trance. Trance is when the person who owns the body totally goes unconscious or goes asleep, and the entity fully takes over. So the entity can write, they can walk, they can run, they can speak, they can draw, they can drink liquids, they can eat, they can perform rituals, they can do everything.


4 Jul 21, 08:14 PM
Jacinta: 1. Rinpoche mentioned that there are three ways which an oracle can benefit others. They can take trance, transmit information without trance or channeling /half trance.

Full trance : oracle take full trance of another entity, and that entity is able to speak, heal, predict, prophesise, give advice, or whatever, through that person’s body
Transmit Knowledge without trance : send images, or they send premonitions, or they send words or dates, to the person, and that person is able to relay what the entity is trying to convey without having to take trance
Channeling : The person who owns the body doesn’t go to sleep or doesn’t go unconscious while the entity inhabits their body and speaks through them.
4 Jul 21, 08:13 PM
Joy_Moderator: 1. What are the many different types of oracles are there in terms of how they take trance and how they communicate/send messages to us as mentioned by Rinpoche? Answers are at the beginning of the article 😬
4 Jul 21, 08:10 PM
Joy_Moderator: Hi Sam good evening, nice to see you again :)
4 Jul 21, 08:10 PM
Fhsam: Good evening Rinpoche .....Joy and everyone
4 Jul 21, 08:09 PM
Joy_Moderator: Hello good evening Jacinta :)
4 Jul 21, 08:08 PM
Jacinta: Good evening Rinpoche and everyone here.
4 Jul 21, 08:07 PM
Joy_Moderator: Hello Katrina... glad u made it :)
4 Jul 21, 08:07 PM
Valentina: Good evening chatroom
4 Jul 21, 08:07 PM
Katrina: Hello Rinpoche, Aunty Joy and everybody!
4 Jul 21, 08:07 PM
Joy_Moderator: 1. What are the many different types of oracles are there in terms of how they take trance and how they communicate/send messages to us as mentioned by Rinpoche?
4 Jul 21, 08:06 PM
Joy_Moderator: Ok let's start first... many are late
4 Jul 21, 08:05 PM
Joy_Moderator: Good evening Pastor Shin and Pastor Antoinette and Andrea :)
4 Jul 21, 08:05 PM
Andrea Lai: Good evening Rinpoche and everyone!
4 Jul 21, 08:05 PM
Pastor Antoinette: Good evening Rinpoche, good evening everyone
4 Jul 21, 08:05 PM
Pastor Shin: Good evening!
4 Jul 21, 08:03 PM
Joy_Moderator: Choyang Kuten Lama’s first trance was when he was just seventeen. Under the care and guidance of H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, he became a renowned oracle who contributed greatly to his countrymen during the most trying time in Tibet’s history.

His life story and deeds are an example of someone who had a special relationship with Dorje Shugden and as a result, he spent most of his life in service of others.

Learn with us on Sunday’s blog chat discussion at 8pm (GMT +8).


<< Tonight's Blog chat topic >>
The Selfless Dorje Shugden Oracle
https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/?p=184932
27 Jun 21, 09:09 PM
Pastor Shin: Thank you Rinpoche. Thank you Valentina for moderating. Thank you everyone for joining, see you guys next week!
27 Jun 21, 09:05 PM
Valentina_moderator: bye and stay safe everyone
27 Jun 21, 09:05 PM
Jacinta: Bye Bye
27 Jun 21, 09:05 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Joy, Andrea Yee Mun and Callista for participating. See you next week and stay safe
27 Jun 21, 09:05 PM
Jacinta: Sorry, not teen in. Good night Yee Mun
27 Jun 21, 09:04 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): Thank you Rinpoche, Valentina, Pastors and everyone. Good night and stay safe.
27 Jun 21, 09:04 PM
Pastor Antoinette: Thank you Rinpoche, thank you Valentina for moderating and thank you everyone for participating. Good night. Stay safe.
27 Jun 21, 09:04 PM
Jacinta: Thank you and good night to Joy and Valentina. Good night Pastors, teen in, Andrea and Callista too.
27 Jun 21, 09:04 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Jacinta - glad you find the article inspiring.
27 Jun 21, 09:04 PM
Joy: Thank you Rinpoche for creating such interesting blog posts to make us understand the Dharma, inspire us and bless us. Thank Valentina for moderating! See everyone next week! Stay safe all and stay spiritual since MCO is extended. Bye for now 👋🏼 🙏🏼
27 Jun 21, 09:04 PM
Andrea Lai: Thank you Rinpoche, moderators and everyone. Good night, stay healthy and stay safe
27 Jun 21, 09:04 PM
Callista: Thanks and Good night Rinpoche, Pastors, Valentina and everyone
27 Jun 21, 09:03 PM
Jacinta: This article is inspiring. There are lots more of what have been discussed and I appreciate having it discussed. Thank you to everyone here and especially Rinpoche. 🙏
27 Jun 21, 09:03 PM
Valentina_moderator: We have come to the end of our blog chat session. Thank you Rinpoche for the opportunity and everyone for participating. Hope to see you again next week. Don't forget to do your dedication...
27 Jun 21, 09:02 PM
Valentina_moderator: Question 6 is our final question
27 Jun 21, 09:02 PM
Valentina_moderator: 6. What auspicious signs appeared during Lochen Rinpoche's parinirvana (passing) that show her attainment?

ANS 6

Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye.

One of her disciples recorded that she had stayed in the death meditation for one week. According to Jigme Dorje Rinpoche who had known Lochen Rinpoche for most of her life, white and red drops came from the nostrils of her dead body, symbolic of the female and male aspects of existence.
27 Jun 21, 09:02 PM
Valentina_moderator: 5. Why did Pema Gyatso treat Lochen Rinpoche harshly? Can you think of any other reasons as to why an attained lama treats his/her student harshly?

ANS 5:

Pema Gyatso treated Lochen Rinpoche harshly in order to break her pride. However, Lochen Rinpoche never lost faith and never doubted his pure intention. Lochen Rinpoche interpreted his actions as skillful methods (upāya) to help her understand the fundamental religious truths.

A lama can also treat someone harshly out of compassion to help purify their karma.

27 Jun 21, 09:01 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Yee Mun and Callista
27 Jun 21, 09:01 PM
Callista: A6:She indicated that she would be reborn as a boy in her next life. Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye. One of her disciples recorded that she had stayed in the death meditation for one week. According to Jigme Dorje Rinpoche who had known Lochen Rinpoche for most of her life, white and red drops came from the nostrils of her dead body, symbolic of the female and male aspects of existence.
27 Jun 21, 09:01 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A6 : Before she passed away, she indicated that she would be reborn as a boy in her next life. Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye. [b r]
One of her disciples recorded that she had stayed in the death meditation for one week. According to Jigme Dorje Rinpoche who had known Lochen Rinpoche for most of her life, white and red drops came from the nostrils of her dead body, symbolic of the female and male aspects of existence.
27 Jun 21, 09:01 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Jacinta
27 Jun 21, 09:01 PM
Jacinta: A6. Before she passed away, she indicated that she would be reborn as a boy in her next life. Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye.
27 Jun 21, 09:00 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Pastor Shin
27 Jun 21, 08:59 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Andrea, Joy and Pastor Antoinette. :)
27 Jun 21, 08:59 PM
Pastor Shin: A6. Before Lochen Rinpoche passed away, she indicated that she would be reborn as a boy in her next life. Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye.

One of her disciples recorded that she had stayed in the death meditation for one week. According to Jigme Dorje Rinpoche who had known Lochen Rinpoche for most of her life, white and red drops came from the nostrils of her dead body, symbolic of the female and male aspects of existence.
27 Jun 21, 08:59 PM
Pastor Antoinette: 6. What auspicious signs appeared during Lochen Rinpoche's parinirvana (passing) that show her attainment?

Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye.
One of her disciples recorded that she had stayed in the death meditation for one week. According to Jigme Dorje Rinpoche who had known Lochen Rinpoche for most of her life, white and red drops came from the nostrils of her dead body, symbolic of the female and male aspects of existence.
27 Jun 21, 08:59 PM
Valentina_moderator: Yes Callista - you brought up a very important point. Although she was treated harshly, but Lochen Rinpoche never lose faith in her teacher. And even after she was kicked out, when the opportunity arise, she still sought to meet her teacher - Callista: A5: Her Guru wanted to break her pride so that no obstacles for her to practice Dharma. On the other hand, she had shown us the practice of Guru devotion
27 Jun 21, 08:58 PM
Joy: A6 - Before she passed away, she indicated that she would be reborn as a boy in her next life. Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye.

- One of her disciples recorded that she had stayed in the death meditation for one week. According to Jigme Dorje Rinpoche who had known Lochen Rinpoche for most of her life, white and red drops came from the nostrils of her dead body, symbolic of the female and male aspects of existence.
27 Jun 21, 08:58 PM
Andrea Lai: A6: Before she passed away, she indicated that she would be reborn as a boy in her next life. Lochen Rinpoche passed away on March 13, 1951 amidst auspicious signs, such as rainbows, and a white conch shell manifesting around her right eye.


One of her disciples recorded that she had stayed in the death meditation for one week. According to Jigme Dorje Rinpoche who had known Lochen Rinpoche for most of her life, white and red drops came from the nostrils of her dead body, symbolic of the female and male aspects of existence.
27 Jun 21, 08:57 PM
Callista: A5: Her Guru wanted to break her pride so that no obstacles for her to practice Dharma. On the other hand, she had shown us the practice of Guru devotion
27 Jun 21, 08:55 PM
Valentina_moderator: :) - Jacinta: Yea 🙌
27 Jun 21, 08:55 PM
Jacinta: Yea 🙌
27 Jun 21, 08:54 PM
Valentina_moderator: 4. How did Lochen Rinpoche meet with her root teacher, Pema Gyatso?

ANS 4:

Lochen Rinpoche was introduced to Pema Gyatso by a nun named Lobsang Drolma. The nun also told Lochen Rinpoche that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama.

Lochen Rinpoche searched high and low for Pema Gyatso’s whereabouts, and was overjoyed when she finally found him. She bought an offering of milk from the nomads who lived nearby and went towards the cave where Pema Gyatso resided. On the way to the cave, Lochen Rinpoche met a nun who was carrying a container full of water, which was an allegory of her future fame. It is said that due to her offering milk to the lama, many years later someone offered her a cow that continuously produced milk for eight or nine years although it bore no calf.

At their first meeting, Pema Gyatso asked, “Where have you come from, who are you, and what is your purpose?” In response to this question, Lochen Rinpoche introduced herself and informed the Lama of her wish to study the Dharma. Pema Gyatso accepted Lochen Rinpoche as his student and advised her to follow the ascetic precepts known as Kadam’s Ten Innermost Jewels.
27 Jun 21, 08:53 PM
Joy: Thank you @Jacinta... I think you are right on! :D Jacinta: Not sure exactly where this phrase located but I think it refers to the four noble truths? @Joy: I have a question, if anyone knows and would like to answer >>> What are "fundamental religious truths" stated in the article.
27 Jun 21, 08:53 PM
Valentina_moderator: 6. What auspicious signs appeared during Lochen Rinpoche's parinirvana (passing) that show her attainment?
27 Jun 21, 08:53 PM
Valentina_moderator: If you are ready, you can proceed to question 6
27 Jun 21, 08:53 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Yee Mun
27 Jun 21, 08:53 PM
Callista: Rejoiced Valentina
27 Jun 21, 08:53 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Pastor Shin
27 Jun 21, 08:52 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A5 : Pema Gyatso treated Lochen Rinpoche harshly in order to break her pride. However, Lochen Rinpoche never lost faith and never doubted his pure intention. Lochen Rinpoche interpreted his actions as skillful methods (upāya) to help her understand the fundamental religious truths.

Another reason why an attained lama treats his/her student harshly to purify the student's karma. Because of our heavy karma from the past, we will have obstacles in learning and obstructed our attainment in our practise.
27 Jun 21, 08:52 PM
Jacinta: Not sure exactly where this phrase located but I think it refers to the four noble truths? @Joy: I have a question, if anyone knows and would like to answer >>> What are "fundamental religious truths" stated in the article.
27 Jun 21, 08:52 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Andrea
27 Jun 21, 08:52 PM
Valentina_moderator: Dear Jacinta, you brought up an interesting point. Yes sometimes we understand better and become more aware after being scolded
27 Jun 21, 08:52 PM
Pastor Shin: A5. Pema Gyatso treated Lochen Rinpoche harshly to break her pride. However, Lochen Rinpoche never lost faith and never doubted his pure intention. Lochen Rinpoche interpreted his actions as skillful methods (upāya) to help her understand the fundamental religious truths.


Another reason as to why an attained lama treats his/her student harshly is to use the wrathful method to purify some of the students' karma.
27 Jun 21, 08:50 PM
Valentina_moderator: Hi Joy - the article or the book do not explain clearly, but I think to understand the Fundamental Religious Truth in here is for Lochen Rinpoche to penetrate the true meaning of Buddha's teaching. Joy: I have a question, if anyone knows and would like to answer >>> What are "fundamental religious truths" stated in the article.
27 Jun 21, 08:49 PM
Andrea Lai: A5: Pema Gyatso treated Lochen Rinpoche harshly in order to break her pride. An attained lama treats his/her student harshly it is because to train the student become more independent, purify negative karma such as ego.
27 Jun 21, 08:49 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Pastor Shin
27 Jun 21, 08:48 PM
Pastor Shin: A4. When Lochen Rinpoche was thirteen, she met a nun named Lobsang Drolma, who served in the court of King Mandi. Lobsang Drolma said that her maternal uncle was Pema Gyatso, a personal disciple of ‘the Lord of Refuge’ Shabkar, and now staying in Kyirong.

The nun also told Lochen Rinpoche that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama.

Lochen Rinpoche searched high and low for Pema Gyatso’s whereabouts, and was overjoyed when she finally found him. She bought an offering of milk from the nomads who lived nearby and went towards the cave where Pema Gyatso resided.
27 Jun 21, 08:48 PM
Valentina_moderator: Yes Joy - that's true - - Highly attained Lamas treats his/her student harshly is usually to break the student’s ego which creates much suffering for the student and to purify the student’s negative karma. It is out of great compassion and Bodhicitta that they do that always. How we know this is because the Guru will always reward the student when the student is on the right track. Hence, the Guru is not always harsh, there is a balance, and you know.
27 Jun 21, 08:48 PM
Jacinta: 5. This is because her Guru wanted to break her pride. Logically speaking, when people revered you so much especially when you're so young, don't you think pride naturally builds up over time? When a Guru treats a student harshly, it is due to the lesson that the student needed to learn at that time. When you are scolded, naturally we will be more 'aware' isn't it? Just like when someone shouted at us, we will be shocked!
27 Jun 21, 08:47 PM
Joy: I have a question, if anyone knows and would like to answer >>> What are "fundamental religious truths" stated in the article.
27 Jun 21, 08:47 PM
Pastor Shin: messageA3. Lochen Rinpoche was terrified and ran away. She hid under some thorny bushes. As she was hiding, Lochen Rinpoche suddenly felt light and blissful. She heard a melodious sound around her. Without her realising it, one week had passed. Her parents and most of the villagers were under the assumption that she had been eaten either by demons or wild animals. When she emerged from her hiding, many children in her neighbourhood were amazed and developed faith in her. Some erected a throne, some prostrated, some pretended to blow trumpets (dung chen), some pretended to beat drums, and some acted as though they were asking for religious instruction. With that, Lochen Rinpoche spoke on the doctrine.
27 Jun 21, 08:47 PM
Joy: A5: - The Guru, Pema Gyatso did that to break Lochen Rinpoche’s pride.


- However, Lochen Rinpoche never lost faith and never doubted his pure intention. Lochen Rinpoche interpreted his actions as skillful methods (upāya) to help her understand the fundamental religious truths.


- Highly attained Lamas treats his/her student harshly is usually to break the student’s ego which creates much suffering for the student and to purify the student’s negative karma. It is out of great compassion and Bodhicitta that they do that always. How we know this is because the Guru will always reward the student when the student is on the right track. Hence, the Guru is not always harsh, there is a balance, and you know.
27 Jun 21, 08:47 PM
Valentina_moderator: Yes Callista - very interesting. but as usual when Rinpoche gave the instruction, there is always a way for us to fulfill it. Finally, a friend of a friend of a friend in Sweden managed to borrow this for us and even willing to ship it to Malaysia for several weeks for us to read. Then we returned the book again by mail hehe
27 Jun 21, 08:45 PM
Valentina_moderator: Just to share this teaching by H.E. Tsem Rinpoche as to why a lama treat his/her student harshly - The 'Angry' Lama https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK9hReMhuwo
27 Jun 21, 08:44 PM
Callista: Intereting to know that book was in Eurpoean country library
27 Jun 21, 08:43 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Callista
27 Jun 21, 08:43 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Pastor Antoinette - Yes you are right another reason why an attained lama treat his or her student harshly is to purify their karma
27 Jun 21, 08:43 PM
Callista: A4:When she was thirteen, Lochen Rinpoche met a nun named Lobsang Drolma, who served in the court of King Mandi. Lobsang Drolma said that her maternal uncle was Pema Gyatso, a personal disciple of ‘the Lord of Refuge’ Shabkar. The nun also told Lochen Rinpoche that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama. Lochen Rinpoche searched high and low for Pema Gyatso’s whereabouts, and was overjoyed when she finally found him. She bought an offering of milk from the nomads who lived nearby and went towards the cave where Pema Gyatso resided. On the way to the cave, Lochen Rinpoche met a nun who was carrying a container full of water, which was an allegory of her future fame. It is said that due to her offering milk to the lama, many years later someone offered her a cow that continuously produced milk for eight or nine years although it bore no calf..
27 Jun 21, 08:43 PM
Pastor Antoinette: back to my name... sorry for the confusion
27 Jun 21, 08:42 PM
Pastor Antoine: 5. Why did Pema Gyatso treat Lochen Rinpoche harshly? Can you think of any other reasons as to why an attained lama treats his/her student harshly?

Pema Gyatso treated Lochen Rinpoche harshly in order to break her pride.
However, Lochen Rinpoche never lost faith and never doubted his pure intention. Lochen Rinpoche interpreted his actions as skillful methods (upāya) to help her understand the fundamental religious truths.
Another reason why an attained lama treats his or her students harshly is to purify their karma.
27 Jun 21, 08:40 PM
Valentina_moderator: I agree with you Joy
27 Jun 21, 08:40 PM
Joy: Yes this goes to show, even when something bad happens, it can end up being a blessings, we will never know... Valentina_moderator: Thank you Pastor Antoinette, Joy and Jacinta and Andrea. It is strange that such a scary event created by the father led to the first Dharma talk by a 4 year old special female child.
27 Jun 21, 08:40 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Yee Mun and Pastor Antoinette
27 Jun 21, 08:39 PM
Pastor Antoine: 4. How did Lochen Rinpoche meet with her root teacher, Pema Gyatso?

Pema Gyatso or Chime Dorje (1829 – 1890) was an attained Nyingma Lama was a personal disciple of ‘the Lord of Refuge’ Shabkar.
Lochen Rinpoche was told that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama.
She was overjoyed when she finally found him. She bought an offering of milk from the nomads who lived nearby and went towards the cave where Pema Gyatso resided. On the way to the cave, Lochen Rinpoche met a nun who was carrying a container full of water, which was an allegory of her future fame.
At their first meeting, Pema Gyatso asked, “Where have you come from, who are you, and what is your purpose?” In response to this question, Lochen Rinpoche introduced herself and informed the Lama of her wish to study the Dharma. Pema Gyatso accepted Lochen Rinpoche as his student and advised her to follow the ascetic precepts known as Kadam’s Ten Innermost Jewels.
27 Jun 21, 08:39 PM
Valentina_moderator: 5. Why did Pema Gyatso treat Lochen Rinpoche harshly? Can you think of any other reasons as to why an attained lama treats his/her student harshly?
27 Jun 21, 08:39 PM
Valentina_moderator: If you are ready, you can proceed to question no. 5 ya
27 Jun 21, 08:39 PM
Valentina_moderator: 3. When Thongleg Tashi proposed to cut Lochen Rinpoche in half, what did Lochen Rinpoche do? How did this event lead to Lochen Rinpoche giving her first Dharma talk?

ANS 3:

When Thongleg Tashi proposed to cut his daughter in half, Lochen Rinpoche was terrified and ran away. She hid under some thorny bushes.

However, when Thongleg Tashi once again became intoxicated, he told Penpa Dronma that he wished to be separated from her, and proposed to cut their daughter in half so each of them could have their fair share. When she overheard this conversation, Lochen Rinpoche was terrified and ran away. She hid under some thorny bushes.

This event led to Lochen Rinpoche's first teaching. As she was hiding, Lochen Rinpoche suddenly felt light and blissful. She heard a melodious sound around her. Without her realising it, one week had passed. Her parents and most of the villagers were under the assumption that she had been eaten either by demons or wild animals. When she emerged from her hiding, many children in her neighbourhood were amazed and developed faith in her. Some erected a throne, some prostrated, some pretended to blow trumpets (dung chen), some pretended to beat drums, and some acted as though they were asking for religious instruction. With that, Lochen Rinpoche spoke on the doctrine.
27 Jun 21, 08:38 PM
Yee Mun (KISG): A4 : When Lochen Rinpoche was thirteen, she met a nun named Lobsang Drolma, who served in the court of King Mandi. Lobsang Drolma said that her maternal uncle was Pema Gyatso, a personal disciple of ‘the Lord of Refuge’ Shabkar, and now staying in Kyirong. The nun also told Lochen Rinpoche that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama.

Lochen Rinpoche searched high and low for Pema Gyatso’s whereabouts, and was overjoyed when she finally found him. She bought an offering of milk from the nomads who lived nearby and went towards the cave where Pema Gyatso resided.
27 Jun 21, 08:38 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Joy
27 Jun 21, 08:38 PM
Joy: A4: - When Lochen Rinpoche was thirteen, she met a nun named Lobsang Drolma, who served in the court of King Mandi. Lobsang Drolma said that her maternal uncle was Pema Gyatso, a personal disciple of ‘the Lord of Refuge’ Shabkar, and now staying in Kyirong. 

- The nun also told Lochen Rinpoche that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama.

- So Lochen Rinpoche searched high and low for Pema Gyatso’s whereabouts, and was overjoyed when she finally found him.

- She bought an offering of milk from the nomads who lived nearby and went towards the cave where Pema Gyatso resided.

- On the way to the cave, Lochen Rinpoche met a nun who was carrying a container full of water, which was an allegory of her future fame. It is said that due to her offering milk to the lama, many years later someone offered her a cow that continuously produced milk for eight or nine years although it bore no calf.
27 Jun 21, 08:38 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Callista and Andrea
27 Jun 21, 08:38 PM
Jacinta: Oh, interesting to know that Moderator Valentina. 🙏
27 Jun 21, 08:38 PM
Valentina_moderator: Thank you Jacinta - Good evening Callista. You can jump straight to question no. 4
27 Jun 21, 08:37 PM
Andrea Lai: A4: When she was thirteen, Lochen Rinpoche met a nun named Lobsang Drolma, who served in the court of King Mandi. Lobsang Drolma said that her maternal uncle was Pema Gyatso, a personal disciple of ‘the Lord of Refuge’ Shabkar, and now staying in Kyirong. The nun also told Lochen Rinpoche that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama.

Lochen Rinpoche searched high and low for Pema Gyatso’s whereabouts, and was overjoyed when she finally found him. She bought an offering of milk from the nomads who lived nearby and went towards the cave where Pema Gyatso resided. On the way to the cave, Lochen Rinpoche met a nun who was carrying a container full of water, which was an allegory of her future fame. It is said that due to her offering milk to the lama, many years later someone offered her a cow that continuously produced milk for eight or nine years although it bore no calf.

At their first meeting, Pema Gyatso asked, “Where have you come from, who are you, and what is your purpose?” In response to this question, Lochen Rinpoche introduced herself and informed the Lama of her wish to study the Dharma.
27 Jun 21, 08:37 PM
Callista: A3: When Thongleg Tashi once again became intoxicated, he told Penpa Dronma that he wished to be separated from her, and proposed to cut their daughter in half so each of them could have their fair share. When she overheard this conversation, Lochen Rinpoche was terrified and ran away. She hid under some thorny bushes.
As she was hiding, Lochen Rinpoche suddenly felt light and blissful. She heard a melodious sound around her. Without her realising it, one week had passed. Her parents and most of the villagers were under the assumption that she had been eaten either by demons or wild animals. When she emerged from her hiding, many children in her neighbourhood were amazed and developed faith in her. Some erected a throne, some prostrated, some pretended to blow trumpets (dung chen), some pretended to beat drums, and some acted as though they were asking for religious instruction. With that, Lochen Rinpoche spoke on the doctrine
27 Jun 21, 08:37 PM
Callista: Good evening Rinpoche, Pastors, Valentina and everyone
27 Jun 21, 08:37 PM
Valentina_moderator: I was so surprised to find out that this female lama, Lochen Rinpoche, encountered Dorje Shugden in Dophung Chokhor Monastery in Lhoka
27 Jun 21, 08:37 PM
Jacinta: 4. At 13 years old, she met a nun. The nun told Lochen Rinpoche that Pema Gyatso was Lochen Rinpoche’s teacher in her previous lives. Lochen Rinpoche felt moved and was determined to find this lama.After searching high and low, she found her in a cave and offered him milk. It is said that due to her offering milk to the lama, many years later someone offered her a cow that continuously produced milk for eight or nine years although it bore no calf.
27 Jun 21, 08:36 PM
Valentina_moderator: Just to share an interesting experience. Back in 2017, Rinpoche advised me to track down a book on Lochen Rinpoche's biography by Hanna Havenick. Interestingly enough, the book was only available in several European libraries. So luckily, my friend was helping me to borrow the book for our research. So this is the resulting article :)
27 Jun 21, 08:33 PM
Valentina_moderator: 4. How did Lochen Rinpoche meet with her root teacher, Pema Gyatso?
27 Jun 21, 08:33 PM
Valentina_moderator: You can proceed to question no. 4 if you are ready ya
27 Jun 21, 08:33 PM
Valentina_moderator: 2. What were the auspicious signs that Penpa Dronma experienced when carrying and giving birth to Lochen Rinpoche?

ANS 2:

When carrying Lochen Rinpoche, Penpa Dronma had a series of auspicious dreams. In one of her dreams, she saw herself washing her hair in a spring alongside a group of women claiming to be from Gyamo Khom. When she looked up, she saw a lama, adorned in Heruka’s attire, watching her.

In 1865, Penpa Dronma gave birth painlessly to Lochen Rinpoche accompanied by a rain of flowers, a slight tremor of the earth, and voices reciting the mantra of Avalokiteshvara, Om Mani Peme Hum. In addition, according to her autobiography, Lochen Rinpoche was born surrounded by the umbilical cord, as if it were a meditation cord. Her legs were half crossed, her hands seemed to be in the positions of holding the ritual drum (damaru) and the bell (drilbu), and her eyes were wide open, looking straight. From her mouth, she clearly expressed A and mani, and her body was decorated with red and white drops (thig le) of bodhicitta (brang sems).
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